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Post by dogwoodlover on Aug 22, 2006 15:10:06 GMT -5
I remember this being a topic of the past that raises some tensions...
I am a christian anarchist (though i prefer to just inform people that i believe in the divinity of Christ, avoiding the negative judgments and predispositions that a lot of people have towards "christians"), I believe that the christian life-style was meant to be one of faith, not one consisting of rules and laws, and that the commandments by which i live my life are to 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind' and 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' I do not believe in Biblical Inerrancy, and I believe the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ made the Old Testament laws, religious practices, etc. irrelevant. I believe that government in God's eyes is not inherently an evil institution, and can be used as a tool of God just like any man could. However, I do believe that a society in which bureaucratic government is thrown out in favor of community, in which people cooperate and self-govern through grassroots organizations and direct democracy. I also believe in cooperative Communism, or free Communism (as opposed to State or Authoritarian Communism), in which people voluntarily work for the benefit of the community as a whole in exchange for their needs being provided for them, as opposed to being coerced to do so. Anyway, thats kind of my Faith and political views summed up in a nutshell. Comments, criticism, agreement?
- Josiah
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Post by acts77x7 on Aug 22, 2006 17:27:49 GMT -5
I agree, and ... disagree. I agree that the Christian faith is one to be lived out organically as a faith, with rules and laws taking a backseat to faith, love and evangelism. I do NOT, however, believe in the abolition of those rules and laws. It says in Romans, Chapter 3, Verse 31:
"Are we abolishing Moses’ Teachings by this faith? That’s unthinkable! Rather, we are supporting Moses’ Teachings."
They are not to be disregarded or considered 'obsolete' through Christ's death, rather they have become a guideline, not a binding contract upon which our eternal fates depend. True faith in God requires obedience as exhibited also in Romans, 3:13
"Not one person can have God’s approval by following Moses’ Teachings. Moses’ Teachings show what sin is."
Salvation is given through faith. Faith is exhibited through actions, by obeying the Ten Commandments and the laws of the Old Testament.
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Post by dogwoodlover on Aug 22, 2006 18:18:35 GMT -5
I disagree quite strongly with that, there are numerous verses written by Paul in the epistles that talk about the Old Testament law and practices being done away with through Jesus Christ; these are excerpts from the Bible taken from a paper by Ron Schwartz on this very topic (its KJV):
The paper is actually quite a bit lengthier, and this is only a small excerpt from the first part (it is in three parts). It's in email form, so I can forward it to you if you'd like (I tried pasting it into WordPad, but all the bold/italics/etc were lost). I hope this will perhaps shed a different light on your views.
- Josiah
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Post by Black Wing Angel on Aug 22, 2006 19:55:00 GMT -5
hmm...so this is called Christian Anarchism.....
truth be told, that's pretty much everything i believe as well.
i honestly don't thing god wants us all praising him every minute of our lives, we have our lives to live, as long as we keep him in our hearts, then he understands our mistakes, even intended ones. and that he'll still let us into heaven on Christ's account.
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Post by acts77x7 on Aug 22, 2006 20:19:28 GMT -5
I disagree quite strongly with that, there are numerous verses written by Paul in the epistles that talk about the Old Testament law and practices being done away with through Jesus Christ; these are excerpts from the Bible taken from a paper by Ron Schwartz on this very topic (its KJV): The paper is actually quite a bit lengthier, and this is only a small excerpt from the first part (it is in three parts). It's in email form, so I can forward it to you if you'd like (I tried pasting it into WordPad, but all the bold/italics/etc were lost). I hope this will perhaps shed a different light on your views. - Josiah Those first two verses in that essay acctually defend the following of the law quite well. Christ did not destroy the law, he fulfilled it. Once Christ had victory over death, however, forgiveness was available for those who 'stepped outside of the Law'. And Jesus goes on to say that whoever doesn't obey these laws shall be called 'least in Heaven'. That essay is just a contortionist view on a very straightforward chapter in the Bible. We are allowed to sin, Christ's mercy allows it. We must repent, however, from that which is wrong. Simply 'believing in Jesus' does nothing for you. Satan believes in Christ. He is not Saved. It is Faith that saves us. In order to show faith we must trust that God nhas saved us through Christ Jesus, and that His laws are to be followed because they are for the better, whether we always feel comfortable following them or not. In my opinion, Christian Anarchism paints Christ as our 'easy way out'. If anything, He made it more difficult. No longer ar rituals and tributes enough. Now we must use our hearts to follow God, expressing our love for Him outwardly through obeying the Laws and spreading the Word: Mark 16:15-18 "Then Jesus said to them, “So wherever you go in the world, tell everyone the Good News. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17“These are the miraculous signs that will accompany believers: They will use the power and authority of my name to force demons out of people. They will speak new languages. 18They will pick up snakes, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them. They will place their hands on the sick and cure them.” Even in the idea of baptism, Christians are following the age-old tradition of bathing yourself to symbolize a loss of sin, and the gaining of a clean slate. Christianity is not the end of Judaism, it is the revival and renewal of the ancient faith.
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Post by acts77x7 on Aug 22, 2006 20:38:10 GMT -5
hmm...so this is called Christian Anarchism..... truth be told, that's pretty much everything i believe as well. i honestly don't thing god wants us all praising him every minute of our lives, we have our lives to live, as long as we keep him in our hearts, then he understands our mistakes, even intended ones. and that he'll still let us into heaven on Christ's account. I am not by any means suggesting that the Law is still in effect in the way the ancient Jews thought it was. All I'm saying is that drinking, cursing, sexual devience, stealing, etc. are all still very much the wrong path to be traveling, and if you are so willing to take those roads too heavily, then you are placing them before Christ, and your faith is not being truly confessed. Mistakes, however, have found their way to forgiveness. But the Bible also clearly states in Acts 3:26 that repentence is a sign of God's life in you: "God has brought his servant back to life and has sent him to you first. God did this to bless you by turning every one of you from your evil ways.”
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Post by dogwoodlover on Aug 23, 2006 2:50:26 GMT -5
I started typing out a long response, but then realized how much better Ron and Karen are at explaining things than I am haha. This is almost all of the second portion, and its long, but please read all of it, and if you dont have time come back and read it later when you do, so you can understand it that way as a whole. It was in email form, and I really don't have the time to go through and turn all the titles into bold and italicize all the verses and underline the emphasized parts, etc. so I hope that you'll at least understand the important stuff. And please, read it with an open mind and heart, because reading, etc. has never done anyone any good if they just read it with a closed mind, no matter how convincing or logical it may be.
EDIT: my post was too long i guess, so im gonna have to cut it into two seperate posts...
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Post by dogwoodlover on Aug 23, 2006 2:51:54 GMT -5
What about Jesus? Did Jesus keep the law? Yes, He did. At the time, it was “the” covenant that God had with His people. As demonstrated in the previous note, before Jesus could introduce a New Covenant, He had to fulfill the first one. Therefore, the New Testament did not come until after Jesus died.
Matthew 26:28 KJV
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Hebrews 9:16-17 KJV
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Did Jesus command us to keep the law?
John 14:15 KJV
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
What did Jesus mean by this? Was He telling us to observe the law?
John 13:34-35 KJV
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Matthew 22:35-40 KJV
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
John 15:12-13 KJV
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Romans 13:8-10 KJV
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
The law that Jesus commanded us to keep was the law of love. Jesus did not give us an eleventh commandment. Instead, He summarized and surpassed all of the commandments of the law by calling us to serve one another and God through love.
The problem with observing certain points of the law is that it limits God. For instance, there is nothing in the law about cigarettes or drug addiction. There is nothing in it to address (contemporary) music or apparel. Who would have thought of the evils of today when it was written 2000 years ago? Who would have thought of addressing television and movies or other forms of entertainment? The law could not evolve and change and was therefore limited. There needed to be a new covenant with a law that was spiritual, spontaneous, and could be applied individually by the Spirit to each heart, and to any culture (i.e., “And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence. And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.” Ezekiel 11:18-20). This type of law would remain relevant throughout all ages.
Therefore the New Testament was given to supercede and replace the Old Testament. Through it God is able to tailor and customized a law for each individual. To some people, watching TV (addicted to pleasure) or eating too much junk food (addicted to food) may be sin. To some it’s music or our work ethic. God knows our lusts and weaknesses. God knows what we need. He wants to rule our hearts. He knows what rules each individual, and He wants that place. That is why there had to be a New Testament. The Old Testament was inadequate. It was “one size fits all” instead of an individual relationship with His people.
The Purpose of the Law
Let’s take a trip through the book of Galatians. The following passage is probably the clearest explanation of God’s purpose for the law:
Galatians 3:11-25 KJV
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Paul begins by pointing out that the purpose of the law was NOT to justify (to declare one ‘not guilty’), because “the just shall live by faith (v. 11).” Works of the law were NOT acts of faith.
Paul then makes an astonishing observation: the law was “a man’s covenant (v. 15).” What did he mean by this?
The law was given to man to allow man to try to save himself (i.e., “a man’s covenant”). Man provided the tabernacle, the priests, the sacrifice, and in short, the righteousness. God had to do this so that mankind would understand its inability to save itself.
Imagine walking along the shore and seeing a person splashing away in the water. He goes under and comes up again, gasping for air. Eventually, he goes under and doesn’t come back up. So you quickly swim out to where he was, dive down, find him, and pull him to shore. He’s not breathing, so you administer CPR and bring him back. He wakes up and asks, “Why did you pull me out of the water?” “You were drowning,” you respond. But he insists, “No, I was alright. I didn’t need your help.” As you explain what happened, he persists in his belief that he didn’t need your help.
Consider what would have happened if God had sent His son to die without first demonstrating to us that we needed Him. God gave mankind two thousand years to try to save itself. Many great men came and went during that time, and each one failed. Abraham, Moses, and David were all great men whom God loved, yet each also sinned. Therefore, God said in prophecy: Isaiah 59:15-17, 20 KJV
15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
No man was capable of bringing salvation (dying for the sins of others) since every man died because of his own sin. Therefore, the only one capable of bringing salvation was God.
This is why Paul writes that the law “was added because of transgressions (v. 19).” The “blessing” and “promise” (v. 14) were not part of the law. They were made to Abraham four hundred fifty years before the law (v. 16-17) and added to help us understand why the promise and blessing were necessary.
Paul concludes the chapter by writing:
Galatians 3:24-25 KJV
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
In other words, in order for us to understand the significance of Christ’s sacrifice and our incredible redemption, God had to first show us the power that sin has over us and our inability to escape it. He did this through a rather simple law.
Consider also the following:
Galatians 4:1-2, 4-5, 9-11 KJV
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons
The meaning of this analogy is clear. The law was given to teach man “until the time appointed of the father.” The law was “until…” When was this time when the law would end? It was when “God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons (v. 4-5).”
In exasperation Paul then asks,
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
The Law was meant to teach us restraint.
Instead, it became an institution.
All through the scripture, God gives men simple commandments, and all through the scripture, men fail. God gave Adam one simple commandment: “And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Genesis 2:16-17).” Of all the trees in the garden, just don’t eat from that one; yet that is exactly what Adam did. Adam sinned. God told Moses to speak to a rock and water would come from it, but instead Moses struck the rock. He sinned and was not allowed into Canaan (Numbers 20:8-11). Everyone sinned, regardless of how little God asked.
Then came the most comprehensive commandments: the law. It was given to man to teach him the most elementary characteristics of love. Yes, the law taught love. For instance, the law taught:
Leviticus 24:17-20 KJV
17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
18 And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast.
19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him;
20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
This was a lesson in restraint. If someone poked out your eye, you might like to beat him to within an inch of his life. Then you might like to poke out both their eyes and cut off their fingers. If he knocked out your tooth, you might like to break his jaw in return. So the law taught restraint, the basics of love. But it did not actually go so far as to require love: forgiveness.
The law also taught:
Leviticus 19:9-10 KJV
9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.
10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
God commanded that the corners of the field be NOT harvested, and once the harvest was done, you were not to go back over it. Everything left was for the poor and for strangers. The law was designed to teach us the essential elements of love and to demonstrate that it was not part of our nature. In fact, most everything in the law addressed either our relationships with one another or our relationship with God.
Romans 8:3-5 KJV
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Paul understood that the law was meant to teach us the nature of God, which was love and holiness. He wrote that the law was insufficient because it could only expose sin, not change the heart (i.e., what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh). When he wrote, “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,” he was not describing mindless obedience to specific rules and precepts but a general way of living that followed the principles that the law tried to teach us: love and holiness.
The Law was meant to teach.
In and of itself, it could NOT please God.
Consider Jesus’ first sermon. He explains how the Jews used the law for something other than its true purpose. The Jews sought to please God by keeping it as a set of commandments rather than learning from the law what really pleased God.
The following scripture is probably the best example to demonstrate that God was NOT pleased with the Old Testament. He tolerated it.
Matthew 19:7-9 KJV
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Matthew 5:21-39
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time [the law], Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire…
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time [the law], Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart…
31 It hath been said [the law], Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time [the law], Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said [the law], An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Jesus then explained that the law (though good) was inadequate. In and of itself, the law did NOT please God because it stopped short of what God really wanted from mankind. God wanted us to love Him and one another with the same love with which He loved us. The Jews kept the law unbendingly. Therefore, Jesus challenged them with what God really had in mind. In each of these examples, see if you can understand how His law, what God really intended, was that we love one another with God’s love. Then Jesus wrapped up this message with what was to become the theme of His ministry: self-denial, brotherly love, and self-sacrifice. It was a theme that radiated the essence of God’s nature: love.
Matthew 5:40-48 KJV
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
When people seek to please God by observing the law, they become what the Jews became: self-righteous (For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. V.20). It is the practice of making oneself righteous.
Whenever you seek to please God by following rules, you fall short of pleasing God. You miss the lessons God has for us in the law. In reality, to please God (as Jesus shows us in Matthew 5), we must go well beyond the requirements of the law. We must become perfect.
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Post by dogwoodlover on Aug 23, 2006 2:53:12 GMT -5
Becoming Perfect
Matthew 5:48 KJV
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
The Jews were used to giving only a portion of their lives and substance to the Lord. God knew that the natural man could never give to Him what He truly wanted – complete and total sacrifice - so He made it easy. Under the law, they were only required to 1) give one-tenth of their income, 2) give the firstborn of their herds, 3) abstain from a few types of animals, 4) worship on one day a week, and 5) set apart one of the twelve tribes as priests. Through this, they could meet God’s minimum requirements. God tolerated the law because it was a means to teach man more about Him.
Matthew 19:16-22 KJV
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
In this story, a man comes to Jesus looking for fulfillment. Inwardly, he knew that there was something missing. He had been a good Jew his whole life and kept the law religiously. But consider Jesus’ response. Jesus told him, “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.”
Jesus was telling him that ten percent was not enough. Keeping the Sabbath, paying tithe; in short, his normal acts of obedience [to the law] would never make him perfect. He must be ready for self-denial and self-sacrifice. He must be prepared to love others with God’s love.
Just as this new man was unprepared for this kind of sacrifice, so is all mankind. Because of the damage sin has done in our hearts, none of us a capable of this kind of love. We all would hang our heads and leave, just as the man in this story, had it not been for God’s Spirit.
Now consider this:
Hebrews 7:19 KJV
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
The word “perfect” means complete and mature, including the idea of adequate and pleasing. Therefore, the law merely made things “tolerable.” The law was defective in that it could not change man’s heart. It had to work around the weaknesses of men, so it was only a list of so-called “minimum requirements.” It was what God could tolerate. God described the law and the covenant that He really wanted when He said:
Jeremiah 31:31-34 KJV
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
God’s true intention for His law/commandments was not to be an outward set of rules but a way of living that captured and controlled hearts, that changed motives. A way that brings about the same nature in man’s heart that existed in God: love. A way that causes man to develop into the very “image of God” so that he might have true fellowship with Him. God knows that observation of the law will never accomplish that.
Conclusion
The reason for confusion among Christians over this issue comes from the misconception that the law can actually add to our Christian life. It can't. It can only take away. When we observe the law we replace the spontaneity of the Spirit that God designed in the New testament for laws that are limited in their effectiveness in our lives. It’s essentially say that God’s Spirit is not good enough, and that we can do it better (there will be more on this subject in Part 3).
I find it interesting that Christians who endorse the keeping of the law must revert back to writings about Jewish customs and traditions (to delineate between the law, the covenant, and the testament) rather than adhering to the authority of the New Testament. Like the Pharisees who dissected the law to such a degree that they paid “tithe of mint and anise and cumin… [but] omitted the weightier matters of the law (Matt 23:23),” these Christians split hairs as to what exactly constitutes the law, the Old Testament, and the Old Covenant. In his epistles, Paul routinely writes of the law and Old Covenant and Old Testament interchangeably. In fact, to believe otherwise requires the dismissal of much of what he wrote.
Christians who use Jewish customs and traditions to support their view must remember that throughout the New Testament, the Jews were right about very few things. They misinterpreted the meaning of the law (Matthew 5), everything about the Sabbath (Mark 2:22-28), and even who the Christ would be (John 1). They misinterpreted the prophecy and did not even recognize the God they claimed to serve. They turned God’s law into a religion of hypocrisy and blasphemed His name through pretense. Yet it is the Jewish teaching that Christians use to insist that the law is still for today. Even though a simple scan through 2 Corinthians 3 will turn up the words “done away” and “abolished” as pertaining to the Old Testament multiple times. It is one of the most compelling themes in the entirety of the New Testament. It takes great effort, study, and a dissection of Jewish traditions to believe otherwise.
A final note on pleasing God. Paul asked a question of the early believers who were reverting to old Jewish laws:
Galatians 3:2 KJV
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Many Christians miss the profound nature of this question. If keeping the law pleased God, then why didn’t God pour out his Spirit on all those who kept the law? God made a distinction. He poured out His Spirit on those who believed – Jew or Gentile – regardless of whether or not they kept the law. If it is faith that pleases God, why then do we try to please Him through our works?
Hebrews 11:1-2, 5-6, 39 KJV
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him…
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith…
If for no other scripture, Hebrews 11 makes it perfectly clear that if we are to ever please God, it must be through faith, not by obedience to the law. Hebrews 11 shows us that ALL those who have ever found favor with God did so by their faith in Him. Hebrews 11 could have pointed to the goodness of these people, but it does not. Each of these men failed when it came to God’s law. Noah was a drunk. Moses was a murderer. David was an adulterer. Which among these heroes actually kept God’s law? Yet they all pleased God, because they all served Him through faith.
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Post by TacoShiVers on Aug 23, 2006 6:32:51 GMT -5
Well then the question remains, do you support the murders of innocence.
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~Dookie~
Ammunition Specialist
Ze penguin of DEATH!
Posts: 110
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Post by ~Dookie~ on Aug 23, 2006 15:57:54 GMT -5
The power went out yesterday after I had wrote a shit load and it pissed me off, so I'm goin to write it again.... As most of you know, I'm 'supposedly' catholic. Haven't been to church myself in about 8 years. I would like to consider myself agnostic. Meaning you accept that you CAN'T KNOW one way or the other if there is a God or not. Unless you have proof (And if this offends anyone, please say so) then I can't really say wether or not there is a God or not. I'm not athiest, if you may consider this atheism. I had a good friend explaining the religion to me, and he told me this. That he considers (And please, not offending anyone) Christianity/catholicism/Budhism/any other religion too much of an extreme. And atheism is the same way. Too extreme. There really isn't a way to prove that there is or isn't. Now, yeah, I've heard of people contacting God, but it hasn't happened to me, so to me, it's not proof. Now that is done with, I'll get to the real topic. I believe (Not actually 'believe' but I've heard of) that the religion aspect of life and so forth was created to keep people abiding the law. Such as, if you steal, or kill, your sinned, and some godly power will unleash it's wrath on you. I think that your idea of cooperative Communism is a nice one, but slightly not possible in a modern world such as ours. People wil always be greedy and very few would actually work for the benefit of their fellow neighbors. People would cheat the government and end up getting more then they deserve. And then there is the fact that certain people would do almost nothing, but be getting the same goods and luxeries of an owner of a huge company. I hope that sounded semi-eduacated, seeing as it came from a 14 year old, but if you have any questions, feel free to ask, cause I'm not quite sure I understood my writing.
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Post by dogwoodlover on Aug 23, 2006 15:58:01 GMT -5
Well then the question remains, do you support the murders of innocence. im not sure how that is at all relevant... however I believe that no one could possible make claims to be upholding the command "Love your neighbor as yourself" and be simeltaneously dropping bombs on neighborhoods in some foreign country trying to "kill terrorists" while they meanwhile are causing the deaths of tens of thousands of women and children, father and mothers, brothers and sisters, etc. Civilian Deaths as of 8/23/06 Min: 40592 Max: 45144www.iraqbodycount.net/Being a rather liberal site as im sure some might say, lets say they are blowing it out of proportion and there have actually been 5,000 less deaths than the minimum reported, that is still 35,000 people, people just like you and I, like your friends, your mom and dad, your brothers and sisters, and your lovers. 2,973 American civilians died in 9/11... seems just a little absurd to me. I disagree. Sure, there will always be some slackers that dont do what they are supposed to, and will try to get away with what they can. However, I believe that the majority of people would do their best to work for the benefit of themselves and others. An example might be a public library, people check out the books they need, and will often return them when asked, even when fines arent in place. People dont go into the library, check out a hundred books, shove it all in their car and never come back. Just like people dont take free transportation (shuttles, lightrails, etc.) and ride them to the very last stop, they get off where they need to. I think in our capitalist society we are encouraged to hoarde, and to take all that we can get, because we live with this sort of survival-of-the-fittest, step-on-whoever-you-must to get to the top mentality. I think if people were put in a society in which they lived in a tight-knit community and were asked to perform a few hours a day of work (and I mean 4-5, not 8-10) in exchange for all of their needs provided for them (housing, clothing, food, etc.) there would be no problem. Sure, some occasional slackers, but for the most part i think people would do their part. Also keep in mind it would ideally be a small and tight-knit community, under a larger federation composed of many small communities, and that the sort of current peer-pressure to out-do the Jones' would translate into a pressure for each to do their fair share, as it would be in everyone's best interest. I hope that all makes sense, mostly.
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~Dookie~
Ammunition Specialist
Ze penguin of DEATH!
Posts: 110
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Post by ~Dookie~ on Aug 23, 2006 16:30:06 GMT -5
But here's the problem, with a 4-5 hour a day work schedule, not as much work gets done. There are very few people of which would be willing to work at night, and most people would be working from 10 in the morning till around 3 in the afternoon. Not nearly enough would get done to supply the population the Earth has. Yeah, of course there is always the thought of having machines do everything, but that is the major point of this, of why I addressed it first. What about the fact that riding a train till the last stop is a hassle? Think of it like this. A man gets on a train to get to work, or shopping. To stay on is idiotic if you have somewhere to go. Money is different. If you had the ability to get 10, 000 right now, but it was at a cost of a multi-millionaire, would you do it? The millionaire would be the government, in your society. You, being the commoner, of course you would try and get the money. It's human nature to be greedy. Look at the rich people in the world now, do you think they're willing to help out everyone they can? If they were, they would have done it already. Instead theyare out buying the most expensive, biggest cars they can, along with houses 7 times as big as what they need. If you go by what people have done in the past, and the present, they won't be just perfect like you said, but instead, be greedy.
I'm not discrediting your idea, and I think that is a rather wonderful idea, just that it can't work in a society such as ours.
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Post by TacoShiVers on Aug 23, 2006 18:25:14 GMT -5
If you don't support laws protecting people whats to say you care either way if they die or not.
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Post by dogwoodlover on Aug 23, 2006 18:59:30 GMT -5
If you don't support laws protecting people whats to say you care either way if they die or not. I'm not exactly sure I understand what youre referencing, but it the only people being "protected" is us, at the expense of others.
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